Log in

No account? Create an account
15 January 2011 @ 09:51 am
Question about ships. (Not the sailing kind.)  
I wrote this big long entry about how I haven't been able to write any fic in awhile, beyond a few crappy paragraphs here and there, but it was boring and whiny even to me.  I was rereading for typos before posting and I was like, shit, this is the epitome of no1curr.

So instead I am going to ask a fandom-nonspecific question, in the hope that the answers will help me figure something else out.  And, you know, be interesting to read besides.

What is your all-time favorite ship?  Why?  And what was the moment/scene/episode that made you feel really invested in that relationship?  And if you can't narrow it down to one, just write about two or three.  (But not, like, ten.  Commit, you wishy-washy girl.)  (Unless you're a boy.)  (Do any boys even read this?)

It occurs to me that I should get the ball rolling.  As much as I've greatly loved other ships since, and as much as it's hard to really be objective about the whole thing, I'd have to say that ship that meant the most to me in general - though certainly not right at this moment - would be Mulder and Scully from The X-Files.  It wasn't my first ship (that would be Link and Zelda, tyvm), but XF in general was a show that aired at a critical time in my life.  I was 11 when it started, and 20 when it ended.  So many of my dramatic sensibilities were formed by that show - what kind of stories I enjoy, how I like them being told, my expectations as far as quality goes, my love of shows that can experiment and defy their own premise, and so on.  But most of all, the relationship between Mulder and Scully was an important one for me.  I prefer ships that start off with a foundation of respect, and trust, and actual friendship.  I'll never be that interested in two people meeting who seem to immediately fall in love without even knowing each other, for instance.  Or relationships that start with lust and proceed from there.

Most importantly, I think, Mulder/Scully for me is all about the absolute equality in the relationship.  For every time he saves her from danger, she saves him right back.  Where one is strong, the other is weak, and they hold each other up.  They might have disagreements but they don't belittle each other, or treat each other cruelly.  That's what I want to see in a ship, even if it means foregoing manufactured ship drama.  (Actually, especially if it means forgoing any of that.)  And the first time I really knew that I needed them to be together would have been the Duane Berry arc - Scully is abducted and Mulder cannot save her, and has to hope against ever increasing odds that she'll return to him alive.  It was the first time that there was the sense that they didn't just respect each other and depend on each other, and maybe be attracted to each other - Mulder was lost without her.  He could not function.  And to need someone else like that is pretty heady stuff.
cath822cath822 on January 15th, 2011 05:09 pm (UTC)
Def Mulder and Scully, for all the reasons you mentioned, as well as the fact that they complemented each other so well. Also, they're pretty. It's hard to say when it started, because I didn't start watching until S4 or so and then proceeded to watch it out of order. (I still haven't seen every episode. Blasphemy!)

Sara and Grissom on CSI were probably my only other significant ship, in terms of participating in the fan community and reading fanfic and whatnot. I liked them because they were both very similar people (smart, reserved, obsessed with work) who brought out unexpected qualities in each other, and, just like Mulder and Scully, their relationship was subtle, gradual, and only had a payoff a few times a season. :)

I'm also a Roslin/Adama shipper, but I never really did anything about it beyond squealing and flailing like a little girl.
Shannon: xf hips before handskungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:02 pm (UTC)
Also, they're pretty.

How could I have forgotten this very important thing! I mean, it's not like TV is covered with uglies, but there are plenty of objectively attractive people who don't really do anything for me. But Mulder and Scully definitely brought the pretty.

Heh, I still haven't watched the majority of S9, and I have never, and probably will never, watch Travelers, LOL.

Sara and Grissom, definitely. I'd actually say out of all my other ships, they were the most like M/S.

And of course Roslin/Adama. Of course.
(no subject) - hollywobbles on January 15th, 2011 11:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cath822 on January 16th, 2011 12:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 02:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cath822 on January 16th, 2011 06:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Shannon: jin ftwkungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:03 pm (UTC)
Really interesting! I haven't watched any Stargate - not because I don't want to, but just because there are so many hours in the day - but it's one of those shows where I know a lot about it because of fandom osmosis, and I'm pretty sure I'll ship the two of them when I do finally get around to watching it.
Icepixie: [DS] Fraser/Thatcher train joyicepixie on January 15th, 2011 05:49 pm (UTC)
TEAL. DEER. (Part 1)
Ohhhh, Moose & Squirrel. That was definitely an ur-ship for me. I think half of my adoration for quirky, whip-smart eccentrics comes from them, not to mention my love of the cliched hospital bedside vigil.

I'm one of those people who can't narrow down to just one favorite ship, but I have noticed that approximately every nine months to a year, I return to Fraser/Thatcher from due South. I'm not sure if it's because the fandom is still quite large for such an old show, or if it's something inherent in their relationship that keeps drawing me back, though possibly it's a combination.

As far as why I like them...part of it's rooted in the fact that Thatcher doesn't get a lot of characterization, and what she does get, especially in the later seasons, is contradictory and often headdesk-inducing. But she also gets some awesome bits in season two, and there are several moments where the really cool, kickass, funny person who lives under her icy shell gets to shine through. So when I write them, I like taking those really great moments and expanding on them, and in having Fraser discover and delight in Thatcher's hidden qualities, because there are a couple places in the show where he does both of those things (both of them making jokes while trapped in an egg incubator--and realizing that this person they thought was humorless actually has a pretty good sense of humor--and semaphoring compliments to each other, among other things). And Fraser himself is one of my very favorite characters ever. (I identify with him a lot.) There's tremendous complexity to his character, and you can interpret him so many, many different ways--is his politeness and uber-Mountieness completely genuine or partially an act? If so, why? How much is he changed by living in Chicago? So it's fun to write them together, because they're both interesting individually.

As well, I love how, despite outward differences, they're are actually quite similar on the inside, as she points out in a very cool speech on top of a speeding train. They're both decorated police officers, devoted to duty and justice, and they both have that sort of weirdness that, in the show, is an inherent quality of being a Mountie--they know semaphore, and how to fire ceremonial canons on a replica of the HMS Bounty, and are both totally cool with climbing on a moving Ferris Wheel and getting turned upside down while they defuse a bomb.
Shannon: xf bw dynamic duokungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:06 pm (UTC)
Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 1)
You know, I've never watched due South, and it wasn't even really on my "will watch this soon" list, but this has kind of made me a bit more interested in it. I definitely like weird characters who are also competent. And semaphore, obviously.
Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 1) - icepixie on January 15th, 2011 08:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Icepixie: [DS] Mountie loveicepixie on January 15th, 2011 05:51 pm (UTC)
TEAL. DEER. (Part 2)
Not to mention the awkwardness and the yearning. I'm a sucker for some good pining (I think it's XF's influence), and they pine very well. I love how flustered both of them get around each other, because they're obviously really, really attracted to one another, but it's difficult to do anything about it because she's his direct superior. So they stumble over their words and walk into desks. And they pine! There's a great moment where, a couple episodes after their adrenaline-fueled kiss on top of a train, which they agree can never be repeated unless the exact same strange circumstances were to occur again, he tells her (with big sad eyes) that he's tried to forget it happened, but can't, and she's all, "...Really?" and then they get interrupted, dammit, but it's a great moment.

And canon gives us some intriguingly layered moments between them, sort of fridge-logical, "well, that was cute, but not really shipp--holy shit, that was REALLY, REALLY SHIPPY in retrospect!" things. An episode that I hate for being ridiculously contrived and just dumb nevertheless has this fascinating scene at the end: the premise is that Fraser has misinterpreted Thatcher's desire for him to help her fill out adoption paperwork as a request that he, er, help her have a child in the biological way (I told you it was a STUPID episode), and so he comes to her office, a bunch of flowers in hand, to say that he's willing, but would like to do things "incrementally," with dating and dancing and etc. before having kids, but definitely with having kids somewhere along the line. And my first time through the episode, I just read it as this sort of annoying, misinterpretation-used-for-cheap-laughs conclusion to an annoying episode, and then I realized exactly what he was saying/offering/wanting and went :O. There's a similar layering of meaning to the phrase "red suits you," which for a few episodes, anyway, becomes almost a code between them, standing in for all these things it would be inappropriate to actually say to each other, given their positions.

Whew. Okay, now that I've bored the hell out of you...
Shannonkungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:08 pm (UTC)
Re: TEAL. DEER. (Part 2)
Not boring at all! (I don't know why seeing "Part 1" in the subject didn't clue me in that there would be more following.) I mostly decide what shows I'm going to watch next based on fandom/shows people are passionate about/etc, so I always like reading these kinds of things.

Not to mention the awkwardness and the yearning. I'm a sucker for some good pining (I think it's XF's influence), and they pine very well.

PINING. DEAR GOD YES. This is one of those things that almost always gets me. I think it's one of those things that it is so easy to empathize with, and that ends up drawing you into the relationship, gets you invested in its outcome.
(Deleted comment)
Shannon: btvs willowkungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:10 pm (UTC)
You know, sometimes I wonder. I started watching Buffy in S5, and was rather immediately hooked into Spike/Buffy. But I think, if I had started watching the show from the beginning, that I would have shipped Buffy/Giles. (I mean, Buffy/Angel is to barf, and Buffy/Xander is just...weird.)

Do you have any good Buffy/Giles fic recs? I was way on the other side of the fic world reading B/S, so I don't know that I'd even know where to start looking. And, um, I'm kind of curious now.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 10:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
there's coffee in that nebula: VOY janeway/chakotayun_crayon_rouge on January 15th, 2011 07:19 pm (UTC)
Ohh, I just had a ship overload. Can't decide, can't decide omg. *flail*

It's a tie, I think, between John/Delenn and Roslin/Adama. John/Delenn is not the oldest (I think the oldest would be Picard/Crusher, oddly enough) but it's the strongest of the older ones. When did I feel really invested. Well, although it was there all the time, I must confess I didn't *realize* how much I loved them both together more or less until John realizes for his part, that is, until "And the rock cried out". Yes, of course he *knew* before, they both did, but that's when they look it in the eye, as it were, and *decide* (I'm overusing the ** emphasis, I think). Anyway, I remember I was watching that episode on spanish tv and taping it, but I had to leave for work right after John's conversation with the preacher guy. I can tell you, my mind was NOT on the class I was giving that day, and when I came back home I had a moment of outright panic because I thought I'd forgotten to tape it and arrrggghhh... Thankfully, I hadn't, and the rest is history.

The other one would be Adama/Roslin. I guess relationships that are given time to evolve naturally and where the couple is slightly more mature appeal to me. I started watching BSG not so long ago and these two just blew me away. I watched the whole show three times in a row just for them. I can't remember any specific scene that made me realize I was especially invested in that couple, I really do think it was right from the start. The first moment I saw them together in the same scene, I thought "ok, there *has* to be something there. And that was that. I was hooked.

And, at number two (or three and four) depends how you are counting, would be Buffy/Spike and Janway/Chakotay, which last one is a guilty pleasure and not even really canon, but there you go.
Shannon: bsg goodbyekungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:13 pm (UTC)
I had a hard time choosing, too! When I did a TV meme last summer and got to favorite ship, I just picked Mulder/Scully, Buffy/Spike, Picard/Crusher, Roslin/Adama, and John/Delenn. (We obviously have the exact same ship tastes, LOL.) I already know that by the time I get around to watching Voyager that I'll ship Janeway/Chakotay, too. If, for nothing else, how pretty they are.

My first Battlestar Galactica episode was Resurrection Ship I, and the second was Part II, where Adama kisses her at the end? Yeah, I was done for. I don't normally start off shipping people from the get-go, but I did for those two.
(no subject) - un_crayon_rouge on January 15th, 2011 09:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 10:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - un_crayon_rouge on January 15th, 2011 10:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 11:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - un_crayon_rouge on January 16th, 2011 08:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on January 15th, 2011 07:40 pm (UTC)
Ooooh, Mulder/Scully. For all the reasons you and Cath mentioned. The closest second is Roslin/Adama, but they are a very distant second. If only because I feel like I LEARNED to ship with Mulder/Scully (though, like you, they were not my first ship). And honestly and truly, there is no couple I ever felt like..."y'know, when I grow up, I WANT that. Exactly that."

Hell, I didn't even know what the word "shipping" meant until Mulder/Scully. (In fact, I'm pretty damn sure XF fandom coined that specific phrase, even though there were certainly other fandoms before it that participated in ship activities.)

(It's Alyssa. I don't want to sign up for an LJ account, hee.)
Shannon: xf beyond the seakungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:15 pm (UTC)
If only because I feel like I LEARNED to ship with Mulder/Scully (though, like you, they were not my first ship).

Yes. Yes yes yes. This exactly.

And I'm pretty sure XF fandom came up with "shipping," too! I have such a clear memory of when we first got internet at home, and I was reading an Entertainment Weekly cover story on XF, and they brought up fandom and fanfic and shipping, and I was like, "Oh my God, I am not alone." (LOL, I can't remember if it was that article or a TV Guide article that actually printed URLs for some fanfic sites, but I carefully copied them all down in the library and brought it home and started reading fanfic. So God bless you, whoever you were, journalist-person who thought to do that.)

I...think you can sign in with Open ID with a Google account or something like that? I'm not positive, though.
vjs2259: v_day cutoutvjs2259 on January 15th, 2011 07:53 pm (UTC)
I have odd ones, cause altho I've been fannish since a wee one (I mean, Lost in Space and Dark Shadows, followed by original Trek) I've never been much of a shipper. I hope we're including books and RL.

High School--
1. John and Abigail Adams (power couples turn me on, equal partnerships make me melt. R gave me a collection of their letters.)

2. Andrew and Callista/Damon and Ellemir, Spell Sword and Forbidden Tower, Darkover series, Marion Zimmer Bradley (i loved them so very much. telepathy, femslash, and foursomes ftw! i have signed copies of the books.)

Graduate School--
3. Frank and Joyce, Hill Street Blues (hidden love, power and equality, and omg bubble baths. my ex and i had a date to watch the show over the phone every week. pre-skype, people.)

post-Graduate School
4. Vincent and Catherine, Beauty and the Beast (i found every locale in Central Park that they filmed. sometimes i lingered at the gates to the tunnels. the ex and i double-date watched this and ST:TNG with another couple every week.)

5. John and Delenn (only found the series in 2005, so a new/ongoing one for me. this ship opened the gates to writing for me, so ever grateful for that.)
Shannon: squeekungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 08:17 pm (UTC)
OMG, I remember being very invested in Vincent and Catherine when I watched it. Wow. I hadn't thought about that in years. I hope you're happy - I'm probably going to have to check out some Beauty and the Beast from the library now!

You've also just convinced me to move Marion Zimmer Bradley further up my "to read" list.
(no subject) - vjs2259 on January 15th, 2011 09:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - vjs2259 on January 15th, 2011 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
vjs2259vjs2259 on January 15th, 2011 10:01 pm (UTC)
oh, and I just got to Duane Berry and Ascension in my re-watch! Oddly I never saw any shippiness when I watched it originally. Now it is just there, and very nice indeed.
Shannon: xf pilot chicka bampkungfuwaynewho on January 15th, 2011 10:26 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think the kind of usual shippiness isn't really there, but Mulder's just absolute desperation in trying to save Scully was the first time I was like, whoa, he really cares about her. A lot.

(Except I was 12, so I was like, "OMG Mulder loves Scully they should get married squee!!!11")
Holly: A/R Oath kisshollywobbles on January 15th, 2011 11:53 pm (UTC)
Three guesses! As to why, gosh, it was really the perfect storm. Without turning this into a five page essay, I'd say:

a) Their story. How fortuitous it was -- like, they never would've given each other the time of day if things hadn't gone just right (er, wrong). And how sad.

b) How realistic it was. Not only was the chemistry believable, but the way their relationship grew was one of the most believable things I've ever seen onscreen. The writing was amazing (especially early on), the acting was top notch, and EJO & MM had legitimate chemistry. Did you know Eddie improvised the Res Ship II kiss?

c) I identified with Laura immediately, and Bill is pretty much everything I want in a guy. I don't think the mini could have done any better at getting me to sympathize with Laura from scene one, and Bill's super rough and strong and masculine and intimidating and noble and passionate and smart and relationship-oriented and literature loving and sexy-voiced and tender and so incredibly GOOD. I'll stop here before I go spazzy all over your page and start vomiting hearts and glitter.

d) The literature-sharing thing. This would be Holly-fodder even if Eddie's voice wasn't liquid sex.

e) I've always had a thing for old-people ships. IDEK, Shannon.

f) It was in a TV show but didn't feel like it. I've never super-gotten into tv -- I'm not usually willing to commit to keeping the same schedule every week, and I've rarely run into anything good enough to tempt me to do so, as much as I've enjoyed the occasional show. I've always been more of a movie person, and I've really gotten into movie pairings, but then two hours later, it's over. You can only dwell on it for so long. BSG felt like a movie to me, but it was hours... and hours... and hours long, so I had that much longer to stew in the glorious shippiness and get completely batshit over it before it was over. Best of both worlds!

As for scenes, I knew from the very beginning of the mini I was going to ship them. I knew A/R was a "thing" (I think from your blog) before I started, but it also had that "these two are going to be irresistably adorable" vibe from the very beginning, and I liked the way they interacted. Their personalities and the respect issue was tantalizing when they butted heads. So I was invested immediately, but I'd say my favorite scene was the Res Ship II kiss. :)

ETA: g) Also, they're really, really mature. I almost forgot how important that was to me. They never argued over stupid stuff, respect was important to them, their priorities were in order. A lot of romances are dramarama over miscommunications and lies and insecurities, and I lose respect and interest quickly. Like, I love Starbuck, and I understand that she was deeply and unfixably messed up, but I got so sick of her toying around with Leemo and Sam. Pick one and have the balls to stick with it, dammit.

Edited at 2011-01-16 12:24 am (UTC)
Shannon: bsg goodbyekungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 02:35 am (UTC)
I would totally read a five-page essay on your love for Adama/Roslin. Just saying.

a) Their story. How fortuitous it was -- like, they never would've given each other the time of day if things hadn't gone just right (er, wrong). And how sad.

I never really think about it this way, but you're right. And, you know, I don't believe in fate in real life, but I quite like a smattering of it in my fiction, and there's obviously quite a bit of that in the BSG universe. What are the odds that you find the love of your life out of 50,000 survivors of a genocide?

Did you know Eddie improvised the Res Ship II kiss?

I did know that! I think RDM brings it up in the podcast for that episode. That and "cut the wire" are my favorite EJO adlibs.

d) The literature-sharing thing. This would be Holly-fodder even if Eddie's voice wasn't liquid sex.


e) I've always had a thing for old-people ships. IDEK, Shannon.

Hee! Do you consider Picard/Crusher an old-people ship? If not, who are your others?
(no subject) - hollywobbles on January 16th, 2011 11:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 11:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - hollywobbles on January 16th, 2011 11:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - un_crayon_rouge on January 16th, 2011 08:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - hollywobbles on January 16th, 2011 11:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
enigmaticblues: scully/mulder wantedenigmaticblues on January 16th, 2011 03:31 am (UTC)
Oh, man, yeah. Mulder and Scully FTW, for sure. I loved the two of them together; they're really the first pairing (the first TV show) that drove me to read/write fanfiction. It was the first pairing where I felt the need to find fic, because I wanted more of what I wasn't getting. So much love.

I guess the other big 'ship for me is Buffy/Spike. I don't really write fic for BtVS these days (I feel as though I've said everything I wanted to say), but that was huge. There was so much potential there. There was that friendship vibe sometimes, and the hate-fuck other times, and so much freaking chemistry it was ridiculous. By the end, though, I thought they were friends who had seen the best and the worst in each other, and I liked that they trusted and loved each other, even if their timing was completely wrong.
Shannon: spikekungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 11:40 pm (UTC)
I miss Buffy/Spike. I shipped them so hard, and I like to imagine that Spike went and found her at some point and they got back together (I completely ignore the "season eight" comics), but I hated that all of that was just left unresolved.
singer_shapersinger_shaper on January 16th, 2011 09:05 pm (UTC)
*takes deep breath before introducing new fandom*

I've been getting into Ugly Betty recently, and I ship Betty/Daniel HARD. From about midway through the first season, they're very close, and they seem to grow toward each other throughout the entire series. The first shippy moment for me is when they're talking on the Brooklyn Bridge in S1's "In and Out," but the subtext becomes more apparent once Betty starts growing into her look and Daniel moves away from his man-sluttiness.
Shannonkungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 11:41 pm (UTC)
I've read a lot about the two of them - it's sad that knowing that there's a strong ship interest will sometimes be a deciding factor in whether I try out a new show or not!
ghanima sunghanimasun on January 16th, 2011 10:46 pm (UTC)
I really want to leave an awesome and interesting comment to this...but I can't! I can't think of even two or three ships that are my top ones. I may come back to this though once I can think of some actual ones to answer with.
Shannon: fringe almost kisskungfuwaynewho on January 16th, 2011 11:42 pm (UTC)
Well, I know of two, LOL. Unless you're telling me that Peter/Olivia and John/Aeryn aren't your top ones? :p
(no subject) - ghanimasun on January 17th, 2011 06:36 am (UTC) (Expand)